Transcript

Lafawn: You can’t be what you don’t see, so if you don’t even know that that is an opportunity for you and that other people in those seats have a story similar to yours, then you don’t even think it’s attainable. That is the number one reason I share my story. 

LaShana: Sometimes the people who are kind of in the trenches with you, that have gone through things with you, that are able to kind of see you a lot more clearly.

Ivan: I want to continue to support folks who feel like they’re alone. Or folks who are in spaces that they feel like they’ve never been before. So they feel out of place, no matter what story they have, no matter where they come from, their voice matters. 

LaShana: Hello and welcome to Paperless Pathways, a podcast for stars by stars.

LaShana: My name is LaShana Lewis, and I am your host. In this episode, we’re joined by three incredible guests, Kelly Powers, Associate of Integrative Marketing at Opportunity at Work, Ivan Santian. Data Services Analyst at Opportunity at Work and LaFawn Davis, Chief People and Sustainability Officer at Indeed.

LaShana: Together, they’ll share their real life incredible success stories and how they advanced their careers through non traditional pathways. I hope you enjoy. Hi, everybody. Thank you for joining today. We have Ivan and we’ve got Kelly, and they’re gonna go and tell you a little bit about themselves. So, uh, let’s start, uh, I’m gonna put Kelly on the spot.

LaShana: Kelly, tell the people who you are. 

Kelly: Hi, people. I’m joking. Hi, everybody. I’m Kelly Powers, also called KP. Um, I work at Opportunity at Work. I am a star, loud and proud and passionate of what I’m doing in the world. Um, yeah. I’ll tell you more about my story later on. I want to pass it over to Ivan. All right, Ivan, go ahead.

Ivan: Thank you, KP. Thank you, LaShana. Uh, pleasure to see everybody. Uh, my name is Ivan Santillan. So I reside and born and raised in Los Angeles, California. Um, I’m also proudly a star. Uh, really excited to get into, to my story about sharing. My experience, uh, throughout my time as a star, um, you know, through professional and personal experiences.

Ivan: So happy to provide that side, uh, both sides of things. So I’m excited to get into it. 

LaShana: Well, uh, then I’m going to keep you on the spot, spotlights on you, Ivan. So, uh, I, I see here that you’ve gone through, uh, a few different jobs, uh, just like one of our, uh, candidates for president at the time of this recording.

LaShana: Uh, you worked at McDonald’s, uh, and going from, from there to, uh, you know, uh, a furniture warehouse. And now you’re like in data and the lake. So, uh, I, I assume that it’s going to be probably very similar to a lot of our stories where. You kind of stumbled into tech, uh, not, not knowing necessarily that’s where you were going to begin.

LaShana: So go ahead, tell us about your story. Like, how did everything start for you? 

Ivan: Yeah. Uh, I, I mean, it all starts for, it all started for me, like many, uh, right out of high school. Right. You’re sort of pressured and, and you know, all you, you, you’re, you know, is that one size fits all approach to, to education, to.

Ivan: Success, right? Um, going to a higher education, um, institution right out of high school, um, making the grades to go to a four year university, right? Um, ultimately, right out of high school, I didn’t even know what I wanted to do. I was just figuring myself out, right? Like anybody who, who’s going into turning 18 into becoming an adult, you’re, you’re about experiences and figuring things out as you go.

Ivan: So. Uh, right out of high school, I didn’t have the, the grades to, to even apply or consider applying to a four year university. So I took the, the community college route, did a semester right out of high school, uh, ultimately because I wanted to keep my parents happy. They kept asking me like, what are you going to do right out of high school?

Ivan: If you don’t know, you need to go to school, right? Get an education. That’s the norm for a lot of folks, um, where I’m from. So yeah, it was, it was tough, right? Like not having the grades, not only that, even if I did have the grades. Even if I were to somehow miraculously get accepted, just I couldn’t afford it, right?

Ivan: It’s a scary thought to be in debt. Um, so ultimately, I tried a semester of community college, attended a community college in Compton, California. Um, local community college, not too far from me. Um, but quickly found out this didn’t feel like the right path. Um, you know, it wasn’t the place for me. Um, so I, I conformed to working a dead end job.

Ivan: So started working at McDonald’s really, really great place to start, you know, getting into the workforce. It was my first real job. Uh, gained a lot of experience working with customers, working with, with, you know, I found out what it was like to work with other people, uh, outside of, of high school, right, right after you graduate.

Ivan: So it was a great experience, uh, but ultimately had to find another job to gain, gain more and more income, right, to support my family. Um, so I find a job through a friend. Working at a furniture company, a warehouse furniture company, but quickly hit a ceiling there. Um, just even asking for opportunities to grow what it felt like you were pulling teeth, right?

Ivan: So I had to find a, uh, another way. Right. I ultimately knew that, that the one size fits all approach wasn’t for me. And I was adamant in figuring out another way to be successful other than going through the higher education route. So, yeah, hopefully that helps some sum up everything. 

LaShana: Yeah, no, you’re good.

LaShana: Um, because, you know, we’re speaking to people who, you know, may be at the beginning of their career or their journey. Uh, very similar to where you’re at and to hear, you know, how. First of all, you were like asking for opportunities to grow, which is something very akin to many people who are stars, people who are skilled through alternative rights, like all, all three of us, uh, routes.

LaShana: Uh, so it’s, it’s more of like, you know, where can I grow? Where can I go? And a lot of times we are asking those questions and, you know, we run into those roadblocks and a lot of them are. You know, as we say with the Tear the Paper Ceiling, it’s that barrier, um, that, that keeps us from going into those higher wage jobs.

LaShana: Um, so I’m going to pivot over to Kelly. Uh, Kelly, you want to talk a little bit about your journey? 

Kelly: Of course. Uh, thank you, Ivan, for sharing. I feel like we, stars always have like kind of a similar like starting point. Like we just never know where to go. Especially like right after high school. I feel like my parents were definitely like, if you don’t know what to do, you should just go into the medical field.

Kelly: And I’m like, okay. So I ended up like leaving high school, went to CNA training, uh, went to medical assistant training. And then I finally like was stopped in my tracks when someone asked me like, are you happy? Do you want to do this? And I was like, no. So that’s where I ended up becoming passionate, more passionate about being in marketing, being in social media, being in the digital world.

Kelly: I ended up transitioning not the regular way because you just during the pandemic, no one, no one wanted to go to school. No one want to do anything. It wasn’t for me for school ended up just picking up like random clients. I would say that’s when I pretty much started like picking up clients, helping up.

Kelly: Helping them with their digital, helping them with their social media success. Um, learning how to do campaigns without even knowing what a campaign was. So, like, marketing wasn’t straightforward for me, like, at all. Uh, I worked in the medical field, advancing into different things, got accepted into nursing school.

Kelly: So that’s what I, like, pretty much, like, froze. And I was just like, yeah, no, I’m good. Um, I’m, I’m okay. I’m all set. That’s when I ended up being like, okay, this is, this is where you need to, like, Like sink or swim, that’s like pretty much flight or flight mode, like happened. And it was just like, you know what?

Kelly: Like, let’s just like, let’s just keep diving forward. Let’s keep going. Ended up working at a couple events, helping with social media. And then someone just walked in and literally was just like, let me know your story, told them all about my story. And then the next thing, you know, I ended up getting like this like awesome, like reference to opportunity at work.

Kelly: And I was just like, Oh no, but like, I, I can’t, like, I can’t. Like I can’t it’s not like I just can’t they’re not gonna want me and then you end up reading through everything And you’re just like, oh my god, like a light bulb just like clicks Like it’s like when you like put on like some tight pants and it just fits and you’re just like, 

LaShana: um, 

Kelly: whoa Never in my world like never in my life.

Kelly: I would never like assume that it would happen so then I ended up like just going full throttle being like, you know, what I’m just gonna I’m going to apply my learnings. I’m going to put it out there. I’m going to go to this interview. I’m going to do what I need to do to get where I need to go. Ended up working out and they were just like, yes, girl, like come through, like show us your skills are.

Kelly: And I was just like, like, I got tons of skills. I can show you that. I was like paper, not so much, but it was, it was just like a perfect fit. Like I am, I’m happy of where I am today. I’m happy for the struggles. Like I’m happy for the tears that I shredded through my life because. That made me gain what I needed to gain to work in the real world.

Kelly: You need to, like, no one is ever going to tell you or teach you how to work with different personalities. So, like, being in, like, this new world of, like, full, going through full throttle into marketing, knowing how to, like, work in the corporate life, it’s just, like, It was just like made for me without being made for me.

Kelly: Like, and then being surrounded by people like had the same struggles as me are still going through the same struggles. It’s still being like, how do we level up and all that other stuff. But pretty much that’s like me in a nutshell. Um, but I’m still continuing to grow. I’m still continuing to like skills don’t stop.

Kelly: Like at end of the day, like the skill stop learning, don’t stop. You need to keep going. Because the world is just going to keep learning and growing with you, with or without you. So I was just like, you know what? I’m just going to keep putting one foot in front of the other and we’re going to see where life takes us.

Kelly: Because. I’ve been loving it so far. 

LaShana: No, I mean, I’m glad that you, you took that, uh, additional risk and leap. I mean, without that, you wouldn’t have known that, you know, you, you fit exactly into, into the spot. So I was like, Oh, okay. Well, that’s, that’s good to know. That’s good to hear that you, you know, went and you, you took that challenge on for yourself and you decided, you know what?

LaShana: You know, I’m going to go ahead and go and I’ll even add for myself one of the things that I did, uh, and definitely if I did not listen to, um, the, uh, facilitator for launch code, I wouldn’t be where I’m at right now. So, uh, otherwise I would have just been like, no. You know, how does, you know, sit around, I fool around the computer or whatever.

LaShana: So I want to ask, um, especially for both, you know, Ivan, you, but also for Kelly, did you kind of become like that de facto go to person? And is that the thing that kind of maybe motivated you to go into the directions that you did? 

Ivan: Yeah, a hundred percent. Um, so I think that’s what ultimately kind of. Made me cross paths with year up because I mean, I started to ask myself, like, what am I good at?

Ivan: What do I find myself continuously doing when I’m at home as computers, right? Uh, when it came to downloading software or re imaging a computer or. Scanning for viruses. Like I was somehow the person that people would always come to. Um, so I started to ask myself, like, how can I make a career out of that?

Ivan: Right. So I started to look for it training programs, uh, and. Thanks to Google. I found Europe. Um, I think I typed in I I T training pay programs or something like that. And Europe was literally the first thing that came up. So yeah, I felt like I was kind of at home, the expert, you know, when it came to like cell phone issues, any, any technical issues I have in was the first person they would ask.

Ivan: So yeah, in a sense, like that’s, that’s when I started to tap into like. Yeah, I think that’s when self awareness started to be a thing for me where I was like, okay, start to pay attention to the things that you bring to the table, right? Um, that way you can advocate for yourself. That way you can start kind of putting a name to what you want to do, right?

Ivan: Um, so I think that’s really important. Um, I think that was definitely a milestone for me to start noticing these things. So yeah, that’s, that’s a great question. Great segue to how I found Europe as well. 

Kelly: I 100 percent agree. Um, I think it took like for other people to like recognize the thing that I’m doing, like with like event planning and social and I literally was just like always on social media, always on websites, always on like, you can do this or you could do that.

Kelly: Or people like reaching out and saying like, well, what do you do? Cause you do so good. And how do you, and I’m just like, wait, am I this, am I the expert? Like, 

All: um, 

Kelly: like, yeah, I am. Yeah, I swear, like, this is what you should do. Like, you should always represent, like, half of your audience. You should always think of yourself as, like, you should be selling to yourself.

Kelly: Like, you should be providing for yourself. Like, you should be. Always supporting yourself first because this world is just crazy and you need to do that. But like, that’s how it ended up being like an eye opener for me. Like when someone else was just like, You’re doing great. Like, you need to keep going.

Kelly: Like, and I’m like, yeah, you, you right. Like, I do. Like, you damn sure you right. Like, I was like, yeah, I’m gonna keep going. But it helped. It helped a lot. Like, being recognized by other people because. We, I don’t think us as stars, like, it’s not in our, like, it’s something that we need to learn in our tool belt.

Kelly: It’s just like something that’s just not already in our tool belt. Like, we do go through our imposter syndrome. I think everyone still does. I think I still do. But it’s just like having the [00:15:00] recognition from other people, even like, When you’re not in that, like, not in your role that you want to be in, but like, you’re also getting pointed out in certain roles or certain responsibilities that like, you are good at this and that can lead you into something totally different, like, but this all a part of our star stories.

Kelly: So I do appreciate that. 

LaShana: Yeah, absolutely. Because I mean, what are we without those people that are, you know, our support systems, that’s what I try to tell a lot of people, uh, is that, you know, it’s those people that. You know, I grew up with people in my environment that kind of pulled me over to the side and said, you know what, you’re actually really good at this.

LaShana: And again, we were talking about on a, you know, different episode about how those allies and those champions are so important. But yeah, so. We can kind of pivot this conversation. We could talk for a while on like everything that, that we’ve kind of gone through, but you know, I’m, I’m interested to see, you know, what are you interested in looking at now?

LaShana: Like, I feel like at every point in time in our life, we have a different place we could pivot to. Like, what is the next thing that you’ve kind of got your eye on, uh, that you’re like, uh, maybe I might want to dip into this or if you’re happy where you’re at. Don’t, don’t let me pressure you, but, uh, uh, I’ll start with you, Ivan.

Ivan: Yeah, that’s a great question. Um, yeah, I, I think for me, it’s, I really find that, um, I like storytelling. Right. I think in a sense that like kind of led me into data analytics, uh, because I wanted to find out what it was like storytell through, through data, right. Given that I was just. Really passionate about storytelling.

Ivan: Um, storytelling for me started as a passion when I started working at year up. Um, so I don’t think I mentioned this, but right after I graduated year up, literally I’d say like two months after I graduated, uh, I got hired by the program to work as a staff member, um, as a recruitment specialist, so. Just sharing my story, which is honestly, like, if you ask me, it’s pretty easy, pretty easy job for me, uh, to share about myself and share what I went through.

Ivan: And ultimately the goal there was to help people make decisions on whether they wanted to join the program or not, right. Learn through my experience. Um, so I think that’s when I started to notice, like, I love to storytell. I love to share experience, even, um, advocate for other people or share stories of other people that I’ve.

Ivan: I heard about to motivate others that they can also do it. Right? So those things started to really, um, I started to take note that these were things that were my passion, um, which led me to, to working at opportunity at work, right? Uh, just given the mission, given the, the, just the advocacy, uh, the storytelling of stars, right?

Ivan: Even. You know, before I started working here, didn’t even know I was a star, right? Didn’t even know there was a name to it. So that’s important. That’s key. Um, and you get that through storytelling. Um, so when I think about the future, I think about, I want to continue to support folks who feel like they’re alone, right?

Ivan: To feel like, or folks who are in spaces that they feel like they’ve never been before. So they feel out of place. I want to be the person to help, help them. Realize that they’re there for a reason, right? Um, they also have a voice. No matter what background they have, no matter what story they have, no matter what, where they come from right there, their voice matters because I’ve also been in those spaces where, you know, just feeling like you don’t matter is the difference between you feeling empowered, right?

Ivan: Um, and that makes a difference, right? It makes a difference in the way that you show up, uh, makes a difference in just feeling motivated to do what you do on a day to day basis. And when you feel empowered, it’s different. So it feels like it’s, there’s purpose to it. Um, so yeah, that’s what I want to continue to do.

Ivan: I don’t know what, what that looks like in a couple of years from now. Uh, that’s why I’m, I’m trying to learn as much as I can in the world of data analytics. Uh, I’m also interested in, like, learning more about the public policy side of things. Where, because I know that that’s a huge driving factor in, in, in influencing, uh, employers, not only in the public sector, but also in the private sector to hire more stars, right?

Ivan: I think that’s really important. So yeah, also getting into that side of things is, it’s really something I’m interested in learning more about and getting into. 

Kelly: How can I compete? Oh my, no. For real.

Kelly: That’s amazing, Ivan. Well, that’s like, I’m your supporter. I’m right here for you. Future goals. Um, I think when I was recognized and when I recognized myself as a star skilled through alternative routes, I think that just opened up a whole new door. Or like, I think of it like as a rainbow. Like there’s so many different Ways, colors, or like directions that you can go in.

Kelly: And like, I will, for me, for me, me being in marketing now, I definitely want to level up in my career because I want to be able to manage or be a director and get other people that were like me being like Naga, like you can do this too. Uh, like there’s no, there’s no framework around getting through what you need to get through to like be a higher level into your career.

Kelly: But if we talk about future goals, like I’ve always wanted to be like a comedian, I’ve always wanted to dabble into like other little things and being influencer, like, so I’m definitely working on those on the side, but like. That also helped me, like, know that, like, you don’t need just one job, or you don’t need just one destination to, like, level up in your career.

Kelly: I think if you have multiple different aspects of, like, what you love to do, and if you can get through it, and if you can do what you need to do at the end of the day to make sure you’re surviving, and if you can have fun while doing it, I am, I’m for it. And I, I will, like, I’m 100 percent supportive for myself, so I definitely want to, like, level up in my career.

Kelly: I want to be able to hire and get other people that are like me and like just boost their confidence up and get them to do what they need to do and to know that they’re not alone. Like, just like you said, Ivan, like to let them know, like you have a voice to like, I have a voice, like, and I’m going to shout it to the rooftops and I’m going to make you laugh and I’m going to make sure that your Instagram and your social media accounts are looking fabulous because we’re going to make sure everyone levels up in here.

Kelly: It’s the anthem of the stars, but side note, I’ll always, I’ll always try and be like a little comedian at the end of the day. So I’ll level up in that career too. 

LaShana: And that’s awesome. Thank you both for sharing that story about, you know, what, what you’re thinking about it. We’ll, we’ll catch you on Insta, I’m sure Kelly, um, as you’re going through your influencer, you know.

LaShana: Progression there. And I, I did want to ask Ivan a question about, um, I know you were thinking about some other things. Have you ever considered diving a little deeper in the AI and what that might mean in the future? 

Ivan: Yeah, a hundred percent. Definitely. Um, that is also another thing, right? Um, and there’s a lot of opportunity for scars within that, that specific, uh, industry as well.

Ivan: Right. So learning about that, um, especially seeing the need for it as well. Um, when I was in customer success, uh, when I first started here at opportunity at work, uh, we’re working with a lot of companies that were getting into automation, right? There’s a lot of self driving vehicles now, right? Right. 

LaShana: Ton here and, uh, you know, Waymo is here in LA, so yeah.

Ivan: Yeah. So with that comes a lot of need for techs, right. And a lot of need for folks to, who understand AI, who want to get into that industry, right. And, um, There’s also a lot of opportunity for stars to get into that, right? Um, So yeah, definitely. I think AI is a lot to learn from, uh, and a lot of opportunity for, for stars and also a lot of other folks as well.

Ivan: So. Yeah, excited about that. 

LaShana: Awesome. And Kelly, I know you’re on your, your journey still. And I want to ask him, cause I’m sure you’ve done some investigation on your own. Um, I’ve been kind of on TikTok. Um, my wife has helped me out a lot with that because I’m one of those things. One of those people that was like, you know, the tick tock, whatever the clock app, the, the new stuff, uh, try to, you know, wrap my head around it.

LaShana: I’m more of a, a viewer, less of a poster. Um, have you noticed like this surge in, um. Kind of like more information about people who are stars because I’ve started to see kind of, you know, some people talking about different journeys and alternative ways of thinking about things. Like, what does that look like for you?

Kelly: I think social media, especially take talk. Is the best way to get that message out there. It’s just more personable, especially when it’s coming from a person, especially because it’s not becoming from like a regular account or a bot or a company just trying to shove information down you. But like you, you want to hear people like you want to hear real life stories.

Kelly: Like no one, I love the stories that are like, Oh my God, I have a house and I went to college and I go, Oh, cool, baby girl. But. I, I, I do throw out, like, I hate the stories that some of the people that have, but like the star story is just so genuine. Like, you know, And you can feel, and you can relate, and you can just be like, I understand exactly where this person is coming from. 

Kelly: Even if you don’t have the same pathway, everyone, we all go through our own different struggles, our own different skills, our own different repetition of knowing what to do or what to do next, or our parents or our friends, or everyone is just like, what are you doing by seeing it, seeing the message get more explosive on.

Kelly: Digital channels like Tik Tok, it just helps, it helps spread the message, it helps let people know that you’re not alone, this world is changing super fast and I know when I was a star and I needed the message to be heard and I like ended up like finding it, it just, it just, it just hits a different way, like it just hit, like it hits your heart, it hits your soul, you know you can connect, like when you get them little chills down your back, like when you’re like really listening to someone’s story, it I think that’s how you know, like you’ve met a star, like you’ve learned from, you learned something in that 2.

Kelly: 5 seconds of that video that we cannot do anywhere else on other like digital platforms. So I do appreciate all of our influencers and all of our other marketing people out there in the world who want to spread the message of stars because we need to be in those. People’s ears. We need to be in all those other beings out there to you’re not alone.

Kelly: Just like Ivan said earlier, like you’re not the only one that’s going through this, but we need to also break the silence to let people know that like you can level up, like you can do so much more with what you have and. I think the best way to do that is through Tik Tok, through Instagram, through any of these digital platforms, because that’s the best way where our stars are.

Kelly: Like, that’s where the facing content is, that’s where they’re going to see it, and that’s how we’re going to connect, and that’s how we’re going to get the whole world to at least, like, shift. And be like, oh, Yeah, we need to change like we need to change if you’re not on tick tock, please get on there 

LaShana: I’m on it now.

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LaShana: Ready to take the next step in your career? Visit tearthepaperceiling.org to explore these resources and more. Like when it comes to community building, what are some venues that really help you? Because You know, I’m starting to get onto like Facebook groups and other things like that. And that’s where I find like the intersectionality.

LaShana: So for instance, I’m on a black nerd group, a black woman nerd group. Uh, and, uh, we, we talk about all things nerdy, but every, every now and then we kind of. Dive deep into some of the barriers that we face. And we find that a lot of us have things in common and you know, we’re able to kind of go from there.

LaShana: So were there any communities that either one of you dipped into unexpectedly that was just like, Hey, you know, these are, these are my people. And, uh, I learned a little bit about where I could go. 

Ivan: I think for me, when I think about community, I think about year up when I was there during my time, um, I was in a cohort of.

Ivan: I’d say about 30 to 40 students, um, all with, with a similar approach, right. Of wanting more for themselves, right. Wanting to succeed, wanting to improve their current situation, uh, and wanting to gain experience through on the job training. Um, so I found community in that, uh, we also were taking. Um, so Europe had a partnership with West L.

Ivan: A. Community College. Um, where as a student, a year of student, you were doing the year program. And then on the side, you were doing a couple of college courses, community college courses. Um, and we had the same classes, you know, if you were in that, that the I. T. cohort, you were taking the same courses, you’re taking the same, you’re doing the same lectures.

Ivan: You were having to do the same homework, same class work, right? Um, so with that comes, you know, your peer groups, right? You start to connect with them on slack. Um, You know, and through other, other, um, platforms, um, so that, that was somewhere where discord was another platform that was commonly used for a lot of the students that were in my cohort.

Ivan: Uh, to share like tips, notes, right. And, and you find friendships through that and you find connections through that. Um, even during year up after, so it’s six months of learning and development. They call it where you get educated. Basically you get the fundamentals down, right. Where you get, um, the fundamental training and preparation to go onto a six month internship.

Ivan: With one of our corporate partners, right? So, once you find out where you’re going to intern, the company that you’re going to intern for, it’s like, you know, like, well, you’re going to that company that’s awesome, right? Like, just a new sense of motivation that comes from it, right? To know that you’re going to start a six month internship with a well renowned company, right?

Ivan: With a partner company, and also getting excited for your classmates who are going to Snapchat, and like all these other Companies to intern, right. And throughout that six months, you start to ask like, what’s your experience like, right. You start to compare experiences. You start to share stories. You start to understand the work that others are doing, right.

Ivan: Just similar to what you’re kind of doing as well. So. That’s important, especially for stars who don’t feel like they’re a fit in because, like I mentioned before, they didn’t take the one size fits all approach, as I call it. Um, so yeah, it just brought that sense of community. And even then, right after graduating the program, you would still, you would have folks who would connect other folks to job opportunities, right?

Ivan: People who would get converted by their companies. And come to find out, Oh, there’s another role opening up in my department. I know my classmate from year up, right? I can, I can’t tell you how many stories there were of people connecting other people to opportunities after graduating. Right. So. That to me was, was a community for sure.

Ivan: Um, fortunately it’s a couple of years after, I think it’s, what is it? I’m hitting six years since I graduated a year up, of course, like, like a lot of, you know, people, you lose connections, but I still have connections on LinkedIn. Right. And connect to folks, um, use a lot of people as, as advocates, right. A letter of recommendation.

Ivan: I know I can reach out to a few folks from Europe, so. This is awesome. That’s uh, uh, 11 year program. It was, it was, and not only students and classmates, but also staff members, right? There were also connections and people that would advocate for you. So that to me was important. That community was important.

LaShana: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And thank you for sharing that, uh, community and connection. And again, you know, like you said, somebody being like, Hey, you know, I graduated out of Europe. I know Ivan. Um, we were in, you know, the, a cohort together and, you know, he would be a great fit. That’s how you get those people who, um, Are your allies that come through and I tell people, you know, um, as much as we want to find people that are up our level, don’t miss the lateral.

LaShana: Sometimes those connections, um, End up being more, you know, uh, fruitful than trying to, you know, scrape and scramble and get somebody from a higher up position. And sometimes the people who are kind of in the trenches with you that have gone through things with you that are able to kind of see you a lot more clearly and, you know, help you on your next step.

LaShana: And Kelly, I would love to hear from you. How did you find community?  

Kelly: I think I’m still finding it. Um, but I would say like where I work now here at Petunia work, it definitely is like, you feel a sense of community support, something that you don’t really have when you first start out, especially when you feel like you’re.

Kelly: You don’t have what you can do and like, or like the things that you can show that you can do without like literally like having it listed. But just like you said, Ivan, like LinkedIn really helps, like social media is like it’s really good, really important to me, really way, like a easy way to like find people who are going through the same things that can relate to you.

Kelly: But even like your own, my own family, like letting, like. I’m pretty, I feel like I’m my own like influencer at my house because constantly letting people know like you, you don’t need to stay here, you don’t need to be where you are, like there’s so much you can do, but like giving that community ness to like your own friends and your own family, like letting them know like.

Kelly: You don’t have to stay where you are, like, you know, be your first, like, be your own advocate. Like, I think community first is, like, when I found it in myself, is when I finally started supporting myself and not letting myself get, like, down in the dumps. It’s just, like, really giving myself community, like, giving myself, like, the reasonable, like, things that, like, you need to do, you need to level up, you need to, like, come on, like, you want a network?

Kelly: Like, let’s go find it. Like, you want community? Let’s go do it. Like, you want the job? Like, let’s go apply for that. But like giving it to like my family and my friends and close people around you. And then even your coworkers, like boosting them up, like, just like Ivan said, like referring people that you know that like don’t have that, what they have, like what they, they don’t have this piece of paper, but like, Hey, I know like some connections and I know other people in other departments.

Kelly: And I know other locals that like are actually trying to hire someone that’s actually a good worker, but like being that community, finding it your own. But I do feel like. Myself anyway, as a star right now, like we don’t have that, but like, just like you said, LaShonna, like Facebook groups are like maybe a perfect way to start just because it’s like, it feels like a, like a long text message sometimes like you don’t need to read everything, but you could just like throw in there and throw your two cents and all that.

Kelly: But like just starting off a conversation and doing all that. And then recently going to like, like events, like corporate, like I went to this indeed event recently and. I just met so many people that were in corporate life, but they even recognize themselves as stars going to digital marketing, like conferences and stuff.

Kelly: Like I really branched out and found like network that way they were stars. Some of them weren’t, but like just knowing like people in the field that you’re working in, like they know what’s going on or they can look out for you and just leveling up, especially in like a new career, being in corporate, being a nonprofit, being in like the buttoned up areas that you like, I’m never really in and just.

Kelly: Finding people that will support you and be like, Hey girl, like, let’s, let’s, let’s talk this through. Like if you have a promotion coming up or, Hey, you have an interview, like let’s brainstorm, let’s think about some potential questions or like, Hey, you’re going to be on a podcast soon. Like let’s prepare, you know, like finding the community that’s going to help you with your day to day things is like.

Kelly: Something I’m very passionate about. And I feel like I, I bring that, I bring that to the table. Like that’s one of my skills. So 

LaShana: I’m loving it, Ivan. Thank you, Kelly. Thank you. I always appreciate hearing from you both. Um, and, um, I hope that, uh, we can see where your next, uh, step in the journey. Your job search doesn’t have to be a solo journey, whether you’re crafting the perfect resume, preparing for interviews, or exploring career pathways, the Tear the Paper Ceiling Coalition partners have the tools to support you.

LaShana: Job Case offers an AI career counselor to help guide you in your search and provides a STARS community hub to engage with other job seekers of similar educational backgrounds. Hire Heroes USA offers Specialized career support for veterans and their spouses, no matter where you are in your journey, these resources can help you land your next opportunity.

LaShana: Visit tearthepaperceiling.org today to access these services and take your career to the next level. Hello. Uh, well, I’ll just say that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to LaFawn Davis for joining us today. Um, I I’m gonna shine on you a little bit. Because I looked it up on LinkedIn because I was like, you know, let me, let me see a little bit about her.

LaShana: And I saw that, um, you, um, just you’re like fortune, uh, and, and, uh, fast company and the, the San Francisco business times and listed everywhere. And in addition to actually, you know, being a BC, which is something that I. Was really interested in, I actually, uh, apprenticed at a venture capital firm. So, uh, I love that, uh, people who are stars like ourselves tend to kind of come with that, you know, I’ve, I’ve gone through this journey.

LaShana: So now let me reach back. and help the next person come up. And with that said, um, thank you for coming again. And, uh, I wanted to kind of start off with you just telling us a little bit about you, because that’s why people are here. They want to hear your star journey. 

Lafawn: Sure. Let’s try to thank you. First of all, thank you so much for having me.

Lafawn: I’m, I’m very, very honored to be here. Uh, and you know, it, it took me a while to understand that my story was a story. Right. I was just kind of surviving and, and going through life. And it wasn’t until, you know, recently or later in my career that I understood that this is actually a superpower. And, um, I have gone through a different journey than I Then some of my other colleagues or some, some other people who have the kind of career that I have.

Lafawn: So, I, um, I grew up in San Jose, California, so I was born and raised in the Bay Area, and I am still in the Bay Area. Uh, I, uh, am the youngest of three, and my parents are still together. They’re, they’ve been married for 56 years. And, um, I graduated high school, I used to play basketball and volleyball and soccer and all of those things, but I also used to work, I’ve been working since I was 14 years old.

Lafawn: Um, my very first job was at a black owned flower shop. Which is, which is interesting because I kill things now, I 

LaShana: don’t. My wife is the green thumb in the family, so I get it. And giving it to her. Yes. 

Lafawn: I, I don’t, um, I don’t do that. Uh, but I, so I would, you know, play sports, I would, I would work, I’ve worked retail, all of those things.

Lafawn: And I didn’t go to college, I went to San Jose State, I just didn’t. finish. I didn’t get my degree. Uh, I had my son pretty young. I was in my, um, early, early twenties when I had my son and I just started working full time. I didn’t finish out my, my degree at all. And so it was a lot of, it was, it was a beautiful time because it was during the first dot com bubble, um, that I started my career and you could do anything.

Lafawn: I’m, I was in, became Silicon Valley. And so, um, I had a, I didn’t know how to say it at the time, but I had an operational mindset. So a lot of the jobs that I had in the beginning were around operations. Um, and I loved it. It’s still my love language. 

LaShana: LaFawn, if I could just say with your operational mindset, was there somebody like in your life that, that was like, wait a minute now, this is, this might be something that, uh, you know, you, you might want to tap into.

LaShana: I know I had that in my life. So it was just like, as you’re telling your story, I’m like seeing these little pieces here. And I’m like, I wonder if you need to have like a mentor or a sponsor or just somebody that looked at you and was like. Hey, this is, this is where you need 

Lafawn: to be. So not early on, and I didn’t know the words to say that I had an operational skill set.

Lafawn: So not early on, but when the bubble burst and the dot com bubble burst and, uh, I couldn’t get a job, I got laid off for the first time and I went from making, um, 90, 000 an hour to 11. 75 an hour, um, and even that I was out of work for six months. Again, not knowing what skill set I had, I was like, but I’ve been in all these operational roles as an engineering project manager.

Lafawn: I don’t understand why I can’t get a job, but the requirement was that you had a degree. So even though the job description had the skills that I had, it, I had to have a college degree. So the job that I got where I got, it was making now 11. 75 an hour, a friend of mine got me that job because I couldn’t find work for At least six months.

Lafawn: And that was the first time I had been unemployed. Uh, and it was through those new experiences, you know, starting off there at that rental car company and then going to a semiconductor company where a fellow actually took me under his wing and, and then showed me that I have an operational mindset. He taught me how to build schematics.

Lafawn: He got me more into a technical role. Uh, role. I started as like an executive assistant and then the chief of staff and he said, I have something in you that is different than someone brings to this role. And I was just a sponge, right? I was, I wanted to learn. I had the appetite to learn. And so he just recognized something in me where he took me under his wing.

Lafawn: And that was the first time where I was like, Oh, I was so ashamed, LaShonna, of not having a college degree. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I get it. No, I didn’t want to put it on my resume. I didn’t want to write. I was trying to do everything I could to smoke and mirror so people didn’t know I didn’t graduate because it was a source of shame.

LaShana: Yeah, no, I remember even for myself, just kind of writing in that, you know, I did this and this was what my GPA was like anything to try to get people to just kind of see more of me. That’s right. And then say, you know, I’m just trying to get you past that hurdle. So you can see the actual skills, the actual things that.

LaShana: You know, I, uh, I can bring to the table and, and that makes me think about, you know, when we’re looking at the labor market, you know, you’re, you’re in the employer seat, I’ll, I’ll put you there. So now that you’re kind of going out and you’re looking back from, from that seat, what is something that you would have like maybe told yourself, uh, back then and said, you know, these are some of the things.

LaShana: You know, to focus on, and these are the things that kind of throw away a lot of the myths and assumptions that we tend to fall into. Uh, so I’m just kind of curious, you know, what, what would you say now that you have this insight from a different perspective, like in general? 

Lafawn: Yeah, to be honest with you, LaShana, I would, I would focus really on one thing, right?

Lafawn: So I mentioned that I had a lot of shame, and I do think that that stopped me from getting into certain opportunities. And so if I had to go back to myself then. I would focus on the shame. So there’s, you know, shame and guilt are different, right? Guilt is I did something right. Shame is I am something wrong.

Lafawn: So it was deeper than just, um, have a degree. It felt like that I was not good enough. I wasn’t smart enough and all these people around me that remember, this is the tech industry. So I had all right around me with degrees and masters and, and PhDs and just really, really smart people. And I shrank myself because I had shame.

Lafawn: Well, now. I mean, my, my pronouns are she, her, queen. Okay. So that should tell you that there’s a love that the difference now in the confidence that I have, I no longer have shame and I see the value in the different life experiences that I’ve had. that some of my other colleagues that have more traditional credentials don’t have.

Lafawn: And so now I’m like, no, this is a good thing. I actually think differently from you. And my experiences actually have shown me something unique that you can’t bring to the table. And so there’s less of the, I don’t have that shame anymore. Now I can see my skillset for what it is. And even now in the role that I’m in, which is pretty new, I took on this role of chief people and sustainability officer.

Lafawn: Uh, in the last few months and even in this role, I’m using my operations hat, right? Because I, I tell people I’m not an, I’m not an HR leader. I’m an operator and I happen to lead people in sustainability. And that’s a different framing that I would have never had early on in my career. 

LaShana: Well, I mean, thank you for sharing so much of that story because I know, you know, that, that sometimes we even feel a little bit of the pain and that that comes through.

LaShana: But I think through that, you know, we’re showing other people that, you know, I understand and even commiserate with where you’re at. It’s not just words and. You know, uh, just, just speaking out and saying, saying the nice things. It’s just more of a, I relate and I understand on like a very heavy gravity level, uh, exactly what you’re going through and exactly some of those struggles.

LaShana: And with that said, um, you know, I see that some companies are starting to try to change a little bit. They’re, they’re, they’re kind of turning the curve. Uh, we’ve seen the, the rise in, in semi leveling off and a little bit of fall, uh, when it comes to diversity, equity, inclusion, and how that is starting to play a role.

LaShana: And hiring, recruitment and retention. So for you, exactly, what, what would you say to like a fellow employer that’s kind of struggling and saying, well, where do I start? What do I do? How do I get more stars? 

Lafawn: Yeah, I think, um, you know, the first thing as leaders that we have to do, uh, as, and as employers, if we, we really have to stand on what we believe in.

Lafawn: Right. It’s, there is a lot of fodder happening right now. It’s, it’s a political weaponization of DEI. And I, I think what we’re going to see, Ashana, is a, is the, the people who really believe in it, the companies that really believe in it versus the companies that never did in the first place, because that’s what’s happening.

Lafawn: And I can speak for Indeed and stand on it. DEI is not going anywhere for us. It is fundamentally a part of who we are. If you want to have more inclusive hiring practices that really recognize skills over degrees, right, we’re talking about stars and being skilled through alternative routes. So how do you need to look at your workforce differently than you did before?

Lafawn: I think part of it is really understanding the labor market, as you mentioned, and really understanding what stars bring to the labor market. What we know is that There are more than 70 million stars in the US, 70 million, which makes up half of the workforce, half of the workforce. And so if, if you’re an employer and you’re not focused on stars, you are limiting your talent pipeline.

Lafawn: And that just doesn’t make any sense, 

LaShana: right? 

Lafawn: It’s, it’s, and if you bring that into diversity, 62%. Of stars are, are black, 54 percent are Hispanic and 66 are, 66 percent are rural workers and 61 percent of our military veterans. All stars, right? They’re all stars. So as opposed to just focusing on a demographic or a population of people, if you just focus on people that are skilled through alternative routes, you’re already going to hit a diverse population of candidates.

Lafawn: That’s the first thing that an employer can do is just recognize The labor market. What’s more is that we know, thanks to the research from Opportunity at Work, is that we’re already, and I say we, because I’m a star, right? So we’re already doing many, many jobs that already require degrees. You know how if you see a job description and you see 10 different bullets and you’re like, yep, I got it.

Lafawn: Got it. Got it. I don’t have that. That’s the role that we’re in right now. Right. We have the right. We’ll set to do these roles where there were degrees that were required. And I think for a lot of us, those opportunities have really big impacts on economic security, you know, so stars tend to make a lot less over time.

Lafawn: As far as salary goes, just because we lack a college degree, but we’re doing the roles that dictate. The same level as those that do. And so recognizing that a lot of us can move into roles where we’re going to make a good 70 percent more than we make right now. If more companies recognize that certain jobs actually don’t need the college degree.

Lafawn: And I want to say clearly there’s nothing wrong with having a college degree. That’s a beautiful thing. It is a great accomplishment. This is more that there are other ways that people can have experience in education, and we could be making the same as people who have just the education that got them in the door.

Lafawn: Um, and so that tells us that this is less important to, and we have to reassess degree requirements to help employers really hire based on skills. Again, it’s not discounting a degree, but it’s saying, do you have the skills for the job and really assessing the role for that. We have seen companies do that.

Lafawn: We did that at Indeed. We removed college degree requirements where it wasn’t necessary, and we know other employers are doing the same. That one step alone is going to fundamentally change an employer’s talent pipeline. And 

LaShana: I could listen to you talk all day on. I really could. I am mesmerized. I’m sure many of our listeners are just kind of zoned in and, you know, going in places in our heads where we’re just like, what can we do?

LaShana: How do we change this? Um, but one other thing that I, I noticed, uh, you know, on your beautiful resume there is that being a board member, um, you know, you, you have a different sort of leverage and a different, um, ability to, to change things. Have you seen things change, uh, just in your involvement, uh, being within organizations and, and maybe, you know, turning the page on some things and saying, you know, Maybe, you know, we, we don’t need to have this particular thing in the description.

Lafawn: Most definitely, LaShana. And again, I think it, it helps that I’m at Indeed. And I can say we’re doing it too. Right. I’d like to say we drink our own champagne or sparkling apple juice or water or whatever it is that you’re into. Cause I don’t like saying eating our own dog food. Right. That’s right. Right.

Lafawn: Very tech speak. Yes. Very tech speak. Like we’re going to drink our own champagne. That sounds more festive. But really, it’s about us. Doing something to create change so that we can help other employers do the same. And it’s really simple. It’s really simple. We’ve removed our own college degree requirement where it’s not necessary.

Lafawn: And then we ask employers to do the same. We’ve become a fair chance hiring employer. And we’ve asked other employers to do the same that barrier having a criminal record is the only barrier where it is legal in the US to discriminate, not hire someone just because they have a criminal record. And so when we talk about barriers that people face when they don’t have the traditional.

Lafawn: Um, experiences looking for jobs, that this is what we mean. And so we have to do it first so that we can help other employers. And I have seen significant change. I have seen really big organizations become fair chance employers, remove college degree requirements, focus on the other barriers because what, what no company will argue with.

Lafawn: It’s the fact that it is hard to find the kind of talent that they want. And if you talk to job seekers, job seekers are like, I can’t find a job. So there’s, there’s a mismatch in that we know that there are, there are millions of people with the skill sets that employers need. Why aren’t they finding each other?

LaShana: And I think when I’m talking to you and realizing how many times the employer may have run into that question in their head of, you know, is this really effective? Uh, do I even have stars within my own community? Have you ever run into a scenario where maybe you’re out talking, maybe you’re out speaking, and maybe somebody else kind of comes to you and they’re just like.

LaShana: You know, LaFawn, I’m also a star and, you know, I, I didn’t know one, that was a name that, that was any, you know, any community that existed, uh, two, they probably never even knew it was half of the workforce and three, you know, to know that somebody made it to the C suite and it’s a star and it’s not like.

LaShana: The C suite of 1930s is this the C suite of 2020s. Um, have you ever run into that and what impact did it have on you? 

Lafawn: Always. I always run into our community and it makes me so happy. It speaks to my heart and it is the. number one reason that I share my story. I share my story so other stars can go, Oh, Oh, no.

Lafawn: Well, one now it gives me the language, right? Cause like I was saying earlier in my career, I didn’t even have the language to say, I, I, I appreciate Hillset. And, and so sometimes it’s that you don’t, you don’t know that it’s a thing until you hear the language. And so I share my story so that they can see someone who is a star in the C suite.

Lafawn: They can see that there is a different path. You know, the whole old adage, you can’t, you can’t be what you don’t see. So if you don’t even know that that is an opportunity for you, and then other people in those seats have a story similar to yours, then you don’t even think it’s attainable. I would have never even thought this was attainable without getting a college degree.

Lafawn: And so that is the number one reason I share my story. And when I share my story, Afterwards, always there’s either people who come up to me like, Hey, I’m a, I’m a star and I’m doing this and I’m doing that. And how can I actually help my company understand the skillset I have? Because they put me in this role and it’s too junior for me.

Lafawn: It’s because I don’t have three, but I can do so much more, or I’ve even shared it a lot. Within Indeed, and I always get like Slack messages, like, Hey, Hey, me too, right? 

LaShana: Those Slack messages, I get them too. It’s like, you know, Oh, you know, I thought I was the only one. No, I’m a systems engineer and you know, I’m a star.

LaShana: And then, you know, let’s talk, let’s meet, let’s have lunch. And, uh, the stories and the backgrounds and the similarities and everything is, is, is so enlightening because, uh, you know, we love community. 

Lafawn: Yeah, and it creates a community. The language around it creates a community. The stories that we share creates a community.

Lafawn: And I think that’s a beautiful place for people to be in. Everybody wants to be a part of some sort of community in some way. Right. And so this is ours. 

LaShana: Well, LaFawn, it has been more than a pleasure talking with you this, uh, this, you know, past 20 something minutes. But again, I could probably listen to you all day.

LaShana: I could talk to you all day. And we could sit and have lunch and just. Have so many stories, so many stories that we can share. Um, is there one last piece that you would love to kind of get out there into the universe, something that’s sitting in your heart or on your head, uh, that you’re just like, if I could tell.

LaShana: And another star, another employer that’s thinking about a star, one thing, what would that be? Hmm. Well, my advice 

Lafawn: will be different. So if it is a job, 

LaShana: if 

Lafawn: it is a job seeker, or even if you’re an employee and you’re trying to navigate your own company that you’re already within. I would say, make sure you highlight your skills, get the language to describe the skills that you have, all right?

Lafawn: Then the degree won’t matter, then you won’t do what LaShawn and I did, which is try to hide the fact that we didn’t graduate, right? Don’t, don’t do what we did. No, you don’t have to be ashamed of not having a degree, but talk about the skills you have. You are skilled, right? It takes me back to when I had my son interview with me at seven years old and create a resume.

Lafawn: And he said, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t have anything to put on here. I said, but you do, do you help around the house? What kind of skills do you think that means? You do this for your grandfather, these are the skills that you have. So think about yourself in that way. And sometimes explaining it to another person really helps.

Lafawn: One of the best things I did in my career is I had hired a resume writer. And the reason that that was wonderful, besides the fact that they wrote my resume is because They talked to me about my career and what I did and it was in ways where they’re like, hold on. Did you understand how amazing that experience was?

Lafawn: So you went to the White House and you spoke on the Hill. That’s not normal. Right. And I’m like, oh, oh, right. Sometimes we get in our own way because we do struggle with that shame or that guilt and We don’t, we don’t understand how amazing we are. And if we don’t understand how amazing we are, we can’t convey that.

LaShana: Right. We regulate it. We, we tell ourselves, Oh, everybody does this. Um, when I was brought in to talk to the president of a fortune 500 company, I told a coworker and I was like, Oh, I assumed everybody went in to talk to the president of the company. They’re like, No, LaShonna, that’s unique. That’s different that he’s asking to have a meeting with 

Lafawn: you.

Lafawn: That’s right. But you’re, you’re compensating for the fact that, Oh, okay, this is probably what everybody does. And I don’t have a degree. And so I’m not in those rooms anyway, not knowing that you. You created your own door into those rooms. 

All: That’s a 

Lafawn: skill that we don’t often have the language, the influence that you had to have to get in there and talk to the president is a skill.

All: Yes. 

Lafawn: And we don’t always have that language. And so for job seekers or for employees who are trying, who are stars trying to figure it out, first get a good understanding of how amazing you are and understand that you being skilled to alternative routes is a superpower. It is not something to be ashamed of.

Lafawn: Now for employers, I would say, recognize the skills that you need. Not just now, but into the future. Not the people, not the title, not, not any of that stuff. What skills do you need for the future? You know AI is all the rage. And people are either leaning into it, or they’re afraid of it. There’s a little bit of in between.

Lafawn: Dating myself a little bit, we used to have the digital divide, right? And I believe AI, AI is. Could be that next step of the digital divide where a lot of people who don’t lean into it or afraid of it are going to be left behind. And I don’t want that for any of us. Right, so, so, our, our chief economist, who focuses on the market and all of that, has a beautiful line that I, I put it on, I said, put it on the tweeter, uh, I don’t say X, because I don’t know what that is.

Lafawn: Um, but, but it’s, it’s, AI is not going to replace your job, but people who know how to use AI will. 

LaShana: Yeah, right. I once said, um, doing an interview, um, people were just like, you know, robots replacing us. This is before AI. And they were just like, everything was going into automation. And they’re like, our robots going to replace us.

LaShana: And I was like, no, because there needs to be a human on both sides. Humans need robotic processes. But if there is not a human on the side to tell you what it is, You don’t know what it is that you’re creating, and then there needs to be a human to create that process. They need to create an update, that, you know, automated 

Lafawn: machine or whatever, so Otherwise, we’re in an episode of Black Mirror, and nobody won.

Lafawn: Yes. Right? So, this is about recognizing the fact that AI, one, has been around for a good 50 years. It’s not new, but it is all about automation. Automation throughout our history has always come in and disrupted industries and displaced people, but also created much more opportunity for others. So if we think about AI as automation and you think about, you know, the people listening to this podcast, what is it about your job that AI could automate so that you could focus on the more important things, on the more human aspects of your job, on how to be more Right?

Lafawn: Like that, that’s how we need to think about it. And that’s how employers need to think about the skills that they need for the future. So that way we don’t have a mismatch anymore where job seekers and employers can’t find each other. They should be speaking the same language. 

LaShana: Yeah. Absolutely. Speaking the same language.

LaShana: And if it’s okay, I would love to end on that point. Thank you. LaFawn Davis. Yeah. Uh, let me get your title right. Okay. Uh, Chief People and Sustainability Officer at NB. That’s it. Thank you for listening to Paperless Pathways. You can listen to us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and on YouTube. Please make sure you follow us and subscribe to the Paperless Pathways newsletter so that you can stay up to date with future episodes.

LaShana: Next month, we’ll sit down with Natalia Lara. Melinda Venable, stars on staff at Opportunity at Work. Barbara Leach, who’s also a fellow STARs Advisory Council member with me. And Zane Richards from UNTAP, Closing America’s Opportunity Gap on Netflix to talk about tearing the paper ceiling across various industries.

LaShana: It’s a great episode that you won’t want to miss.